Change provincials

[Provincials need rework]

Explain to me why teams with shitty zones make provincials over teams with stacked zones?

south fraser 4a has almost 8 or 9 teams in it that are better then most teams out there. and they don't make provincials but some teams who don't deserve those spots in being named top 15 make it simply because they are in the easiest zone tourney. the birthing system is flawed completely

look at the sea to sky seeding for example.

1 - saints (won their "city championships")
2 - VC?  GOT SECOND PLACE
3- West van (won their "city championships")
4 - handsworth?  GOT SECOND PLACE
5 - Kits?    (Won their "city championships")
6 - churchill
7 - David thompson
8 - Carson graham

How does VC and Handsworth who finished second over Kits if kits won their city. why do the cities even matter if they don't help with sea to sky seeding. and if head to head was the issue then why even have an exhibition game with VC this year since they got second. how can you justify an opinion if there is no head to head against VC. 

lets look at 4A south fraser valley play offs...
Elgin park 
Holy cross 
Enver Creek 
tamanawis
.. 3 of these teams wont make provincials...?

why can provincials be named as the best in the province if there are better teams who aren't even in the tournament to begin with. 


I am sorry if teams read this and think they are good compared to these other teams but clearly the city championship doesn't

matter in sea to sky seeding for your zone. so how can you justify putting teams that lost every head to head match up with any of those 4 teams above making provincials just because they are in the very weak zone with no competition. 

[Player]

There are only 16 spots so south Fraser gets 4 spots and sea to sky gets 3 that's 7 spots already. If anyone should be complaining it should be Fraser north they had 4 last year and have 2 this year. I agree that it's unfair but it's something hard to change

[coach1]

This has been an issue for 60+ years. Each zone gets a berth the rest of the berths are rep by pop. There are dozens of examples of teams being left out from Lower Mainland and Fraser Valley for decades. One season Handsworth and Argyle were 1 and 2 and only got one team in. At the end of the day just win.

[coach]

Fraser North only had 4 berth last year because a zone decided not to come. They were supposed to have 3.

[trick]

Mar 2, 2023 0:29:50 GMT -8 Provincials need rework said:

look at the sea to sky seeding for example.

1 - saints (won their "city championships")
2 - VC?  GOT SECOND PLACE
3- West van (won their "city championships")
4 - handsworth?  GOT SECOND PLACE
5 - Kits?    (Won their "city championships")
6 - churchill
7 - David thompson
8 - Carson graham

How does VC and Handsworth who finished second over Kits if kits won their city. why do the cities even matter if they don't help with sea to sky seeding. and if head to head was the issue then why even have an exhibition game with VC this year since they got second. how can you justify an opinion if there is no head to head against VC. 

As others have mentioned this is an issue every year. But to address your S2S rankings concern: strength of schedule, head to head and I believe rankings are always looked at. Just because you win your league doesn't bump you to the top but it will give you a higher seeding. There's been times where a team finished 2nd but had beaten some of the other teams in the zone, so they were seeded higher.

[Varsity Community Coach]

Problem: 16 berths for 71 teams registered in AAAA. Kootenay and North Central get 2 berths for 3 teams registered. That leaves 14 berths for the 68 other registered teams.

Solution A: Create a "Road to Provincials" elimination tournament with 4 provincial berths at stake. Berths would come from current pool, both of the Kootenay and North Central berths along with the current wild-card berth between North Fraser and Vancouver Sea to Sky and one of the four berths for South Fraser. Participants to include Kootenay #1, North Central #1,Fraser North #3, Vancouver Sea to Sky #3, Eastern Valley #3, South Fraser #4, Thompson-Okanagan #2, Vancouver Island #3, Fraser North #4, South Fraser #5, Vancouver Sea to Sky #4, Vancouver Island #3, South Fraser #6, and Thompson-Okanagan #3. Top two seeds get first round byes.

Solution B: Create a "Road to Provincials" elimination tournament with 4 NEW provincial berths at stake, bring the tournament total to 20. Participants to include Eastern Valley #3, Fraser North #3/Vancouver Sea to Sky #3, Thompson-Okanagan #2, Vancouver Island #3, Fraser North #4, South Fraser #5, Vancouver Sea to Sky #4, Vancouver Island #3. This would require the tournament to change formats to accommodate 20 teams instead of 16. Teams #13-#20 would have to play on day 1 and then seed for the 16 per usual.

[Sr. Boys Coach]

Really People? The Provincial Championships are strictly representation by population. This is to encourage participation from all over the Province. Is it always the best 16 teams? No! but does it allow participation from all over the Province? Absolutely!. Yes we could have wild cad, challenge games, and road to Provincials but... These are high school students who happen to be athletes. To ask them, their coaches and their admin to pay for and travel across the Province to play a late season tournament or wild card is ludicrous. Why? cause I coach Sr, Boys basketball and if I had the chance for one more crack at going to the "Show" I would. But that doesn't mean I should or that it's right. It's putting my kids at risk. They miss enough school, they travel enough during the winter. Rep by pop isn't always fair but it's still the right thing to do.

[coach guest]

Rep by pop is NOT the best way to do it... BETTER TEAMS SHOULD BE IN THE BEST TOURNAMENT IN THE PROVINCE PERIOD. everyone in here is responding like a politician. strength of schedule means SHIT for rankings. if thats the case VC and SAINTS can easily not be top in S2S seeding. They are not allowed in league play at all and rely on exhibition games... simple NO SCHOOL SHOULD SET UP A GAME WITH THEM. DONE strength of schedule is over for those 2 teams. you see how easy it is to fuck up the strength of schedule idea?

why is it that 71 teams only 16 berths? that's a crazy set up for a tournament with that many teams. you have 16 of the best teams in the province and only 6 make it cause of this stupid rule of "ReP bY PoPuLaTiON" this does not grow the game as it just makes everyone think of provincials as a joke every year. and guess what... IT IS A JOKE. the committee needs to be shifted to new faces and new names since they never make NO statement on how bad it was and they NEVER make any statements on thinking of improvements.

[A confused parent]

Mar 3, 2023 10:31:40 GMT -8 Varsity Community Coach said:

Problem: 16 berths for 71 teams registered in AAAA. Kootenay and North Central get 2 berths for 3 teams registered. That leaves 14 berths for the 68 other registered teams.

Solution A: Create a "Road to Provincials" elimination tournament with 4 provincial berths at stake. Berths would come from current pool, both of the Kootenay and North Central berths along with the current wild-card berth between North Fraser and Vancouver Sea to Sky and one of the four berths for South Fraser. Participants to include Kootenay #1, North Central #1,Fraser North #3, Vancouver Sea to Sky #3, Eastern Valley #3, South Fraser #4, Thompson-Okanagan #2, Vancouver Island #3, Fraser North #4, South Fraser #5, Vancouver Sea to Sky #4, Vancouver Island #3, South Fraser #6, and Thompson-Okanagan #3. Top two seeds get first round byes.

Solution B: Create a "Road to Provincials" elimination tournament with 4 NEW provincial berths at stake, bring the tournament total to 20. Participants to include Eastern Valley #3, Fraser North #3/Vancouver Sea to Sky #3, Thompson-Okanagan #2, Vancouver Island #3, Fraser North #4, South Fraser #5, Vancouver Sea to Sky #4, Vancouver Island #3. This would require the tournament to change formats to accommodate 20 teams instead of 16. Teams #13-#20 would have to play on day 1 and then seed for the 16 per usual.





THIS IS AT LEAST AN IDEA... but no it will never happen since NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT IT. nobody else sees this except the players who have grown up since the nash days but damn... BC basketball is dead and every kid is leaving BC to go to Ontario and America and guess what all of the LIBERAL BS of "EvErYOnE NeEdS tO Be RePrEsEnTeD" killed it... CONGRATZ

[Guest]

Best solution is to go back to the 20 spots that existed for 3A before 4A was created. At the highest tier we constantly tend to have teams that end up in a tough zone and just not make it out. 16 spots based on regional representation and 4 based upon a wildcard. If anyone has followed the grade 9 provincials they do this exact same thing and get a good mix of regional and the top teams regardless of zone. Main problem that BC School sports and Basketball have is that they like to keep all sports at an equal level when it comes to births etc mainly because people in other sports can’t come to terms with basketball just being more popular and needing a different set of rules. If we had 20 spots this year teams like Enver Creek, Burnaby South, Kitsilano, Spectrum couldve all made BCs. The current structure does not grow the game well, leads to a lot of player movement and lots of coaches just quit when you can’t compete with these established programs. Takes good 5-6 years to establish a program but you still can barely make BCs or get invited to a top tournament.

[coach]

BCSS wanted to get out of the LEC now, to have to pay for an extra day like we had with the 20 teamer isn't gonna happen. I really wish it would and also we go back to as soon as you lose 2 games you are out, like it was forever. We don't need to pay for refs and gym space for 0-3 toilet bowl match-ups. I understand you traveled from out of town, but that is unfortunate. Rep by pop 20 team tourny at the Agrodome was amazing. It's time to move the A tournament back to Abbotsford, the 2A to Kamloops and disolve 3A. 4a back to the dome or Coliseum !!!

[Coach]

When the tournament moved to The Langley Event Centre, it changed the berthing because of the 16 team formats. There could be tweaks to allowing 20 teams in the 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A but it is a huge process and the tournament committee likes the way it is run now. The only way to make change is to apply pressure through a selective committee, that could research the the feasibility and produce a document to the BCHSBA and then would have to be ratified by BCSS. This is highly doubtful with the current arrangement.

Sea to Sky - 4A

The BCHSBBA follows the berthing ratio for the provincial tournament. It is suppose to follow this format at the zone level. It does not!

It has been pointed out many times in the past, but usually gets denied because the committee who administers the tournament, does not follow the protocol, because of various external factors, even to the tipping point of proposed law suits. It has been a battle for many years. The decision makers rarely deny this situation.

Noted: The VSSAA does not allow independent schools into league play ( but will allow exhibition play) It has been written into VSSAA policy. They will never allow them into league play. Therefore, the independents should be a zone within the zone! That simple.

Independents have a huge advantage of open boundaries and students can come from various areas. Where Vancouver Schools have closed boundaries.


Good luck in you pursuit!

[Solution]

Win your zone. There. Problem solved.
If you are the 3rd, 4th, 5th best team in your zone and didn't make it, then you weren't good enough.

If you want the 'best' teams? Then just go zone winners. Can't be the 'best' if you can't win your zone right?

[Guest]

Mar 10, 2023 11:22:45 GMT -8 Solution said:

Win your zone. There. Problem solved.
If you are the 3rd, 4th, 5th best team in your zone and didn't make it, then you weren't good enough.

If you want the 'best' teams? Then just go zone winners. Can't be the 'best' if you can't win your zone right?

Probably one of the dudes that can’t listen to new ideas or feedback. Old boys club that allows no one else to suggest or do anything or promote any new basketball teams. Let’s spend all day talking about chambers, Ebe etc and then say we want to grow the game by keeping our tournaments exclusive to our friends and BCs the way we like them. 

[Varsity Community Coach]

Mar 10, 2023 11:22:45 GMT -8 Solution said:

Win your zone. There. Problem solved.
If you are the 3rd, 4th, 5th best team in your zone and didn't make it, then you weren't good enough.

If you want the 'best' teams? Then just go zone winners. Can't be the 'best' if you can't win your zone right?

Logically, if you can't be the best if you can't win your zone THEN you can be the best if you can win your zone.

However, this statement falls apart with any real scrutiny. Zone winners from North Central and Kootenay regions have gone 5-43 at the provincial tournament since 2015. Of those 5 wins, only 1 has come against a non-North Central/Kootenay team, meaning with the exception of 2015, these teams end up in the 15/16th place poo-poo platter Friday afternoon game. Again, these "zone winners" are 1-43 against all other teams at provincials. Burnaby South came 3rd in their zone last year and won the entire provincial tournament afterwards. Lucky their zone gets more than 2 berths otherwise the best would have been someone else. 

Thank you for the well thought out and articulated perspective, but it does not hold water. 

Regarding the division by population, why do 3 AAAA schools get 2 berths while the other 68 AAAA schools get 14? That ratio is too severe and does not represent the population distribution in BC. 2/16 = 12.5%. Population for Kootenay and North Central is not 12.5% of BC. MAYBE 5% so one could argue that one berth should be allocated to the TWO regions. 

Adding another day of play to the tournament would not require renting the LEC for another day. Those first day games could be hosted at schools to keep costs lower. 

The following statement is Space Balls level LUDICROUS!

"Really People? The Provincial Championships are strictly representation by population. This is to encourage participation from all over the Province. Is it always the best 16 teams? No! but does it allow participation from all over the Province? Absolutely!. Yes we could have wild cad, challenge games, and road to Provincials but... These are high school students who happen to be athletes. To ask them, their coaches and their admin to pay for and travel across the Province to play a late season tournament or wild card is ludicrous. Why? cause I coach Sr, Boys basketball and if I had the chance for one more crack at going to the "Show" I would. But that doesn't mean I should or that it's right. It's putting my kids at risk. They miss enough school, they travel enough during the winter. Rep by pop isn't always fair but it's still the right thing to do."

Schools already have no issue asking staff, families, and volunteers to pay hundreds to thousands of dollars and travel at their own cost across the province. I doubt one more tournament is going to break the bank for anyone and other expenses/events can be cut in place of the provincial placing tournament. A majority of teams with provincial aspirations play multiple tournaments a year. Putting your kids at risk of what? Failing high school? If the children cannot handle balancing their high school assignments with high school sports commitments, why are they on the team? They need to develop those time management skills ASAP or life is going to chew them up and spit them out. The school I coach at goes from 9:00am to 3:00pm with a 1-hour lunch break and some small breaks between classes. Add a two hour practice and we have an 8-hour day with a 1-hour lunch and breaks. They travel enough during the winter? Is there some cross Canada pilgrimage that takes place over the winter break where high school kids Terry-Fox it across the country? If this is in reference to normal tournaments taking place on the Island, in the Interior, or outside BC, I would argue that those trips are actually the highlight for a lot of high school kids and should be done more often. Getting kids to spend a prolonged time together in each other's physical presence outside of their homes/schools in today's age of mobile tech is becoming more of benefit than it was 20 years ago. This whole statement feels like someone grasping at straws and using virtue-signaling to push their view. At least the "win your zone" dude/dudette was succinct. 

Historical precedent should not be the factor in how these tournaments are run. Merit-based approaches need to be considered and adjusted regularly based on new information and observations from current processes and procedures. I don't see any changes forthcoming based on what I have seen from this community since I became active in the BC scene in the early 2010s. It will probably take some litigation to get things moving and no one has the appetite to fight for high school kids in any significant way. I have already detached myself from this issue emotionally and conceded defeat. I will get my FIBA license before moving to the USA shortly to find a better environment for coaching ball, but I realize most coaches don't have that option. Get organized, educated, and annoy the heck out of BCSS. Squeaky wheel gets the grease!